Great Britain, February 17, 2009, interview with Mr. Adnan Oktar by Mr. Sahib Mustaqim Bleher, founder of the Islamic Party in Britain
1) Given the bicentenary celebrations of Darwin, let me first of all ask you about the theory of evolution by natural selection which you describe as more of a sinister dogma than a mere theory: What do you think are its political objectives?
ADNAN OKTAR: If a theory that is claimed to be scientific, despite having been disproved by all branches of science with hundreds of pieces of scientific evidence, is determinedly imposed on people across the world and kept on its feet despite reason and science, then this is obviously something that does not concern scientists alone. Even when I was still in high school I realized that all this bloodshed, world wars, the ruthless exploitation of people and revolutions could not all have happened spontaneously, and that there had to be a cause behind them. Because human beings cannot become that heartless on their own. They cannot be neighbours having good relations one day and then start slaughtering one another the next. As I researched the question I saw that all these troubles were organized by atheist freemasonry and that Darwinism was the religion of atheist freemasonry.
There is no materialism without Darwinism, and no communism, fascism, savage capitalism or terror without materialism. But Muslims are in general unable to see that. They see that they are up against a terrible scourge, but they do not look into the cause behind it. The fact is that Muslims have been attacked from behind, but they can only see straight in front of them. What lies behind these events? What lies behind such strife and evil? They do not look to see that. Why do people attack religious commandments, Islam? They do not investigate that. They just say “It stems from irreligiousness, from lack of faith” and leave it at that. But they do not ask why those people have turned out like this. When one looks, one is confronted by just one thing – the superstitious religion of Darwinism. So long as the false religion survives they remain loyal to it. The invalidity of that religion must first be proved. What I am doing is to explain to people that this terrible corruption, this terrible lie, is all a deliberate ruse.
Muslims have to date been unable to imagine the cunning power and influence of Darwinism. No Islamic scholar has ever waged the kind of struggle against Darwinism that I am, that we are. There have either written a few lines on the subject in their works or else not have mentioned it at all. They have never made a statement on the subject. I regard this as a blessing, thanks be to Allah. I regard the way that Allah has given this duty to my colleagues and me as a blessing.
2) Why do you think a public debate between evolutionists and creationists, which can be observed in the United States of America, is mostly absent in Europe?
ADNAN OKTAR: There is a one-sided imposition of Darwinism across the world. Around 95% of states officially protect Darwinism and impose the theory of evolution. They seek to impose this false theory with an unbelievable shamelessness and audacity, even though it is obviously false and a lie and even though we have proved that to be the case. This is a disgrace, anti-democratic and something against human rights. There are 100 million fossils in existence, for instance. All of these hundred million fossils all prove creation. But one is forbidden to say that. It is forbidden to say that proteins cannot come into being by chance. There are no transitional fossils, but one is forbidden to say so or to describe the false nature of the skulls concerned. So what about freedom of thought and freedom of expression? This means the imposition of a false idea and a lie. That only happens in dictatorships. That means there is a Darwinist dictatorship. Europe has been crushed under the feet of that dictatorship for some 150 years. Look, there is even pressure on the Vatican; that much is obvious. The Pope has to give the impression he supports evolution. How terrible this is. But Europe has now begun to be enlightened, insha’Allah. The earth moved when my Atlas of Creation arrived in Europe, and there is now a huge change of mind taking place. You can see that belief in Creation is growing stronger by the day in Britain and many people, teachers included say that Creation should be taught in schools. Surveys in Denmark, Sweden and France show that people are no longer being taken in by Darwinism, and this is all major progress. Insha’Allah that progress will pick up even more pace in the future and the Darwinist dictatorship will be eliminated entirely.
3) Another European dogma, often taken to extremes in Turkey, is the separation of religion and politics. In your writings and interviews both religion and politics seem to go hand in hand. What is, in your opinion, the proper role of religion in politics?
ADNAN OKTAR: Belief in Allah and religious moral values are great blessings, great comforts. But Darwinists and materialists have sought to deprive the people of Europe of these blessings, though that tyranny is now coming to an end, insha’Allah. It is a great guarantee and blessing for a political leader to have spiritual values and to love and fear Allah. But one must not, of course, seek to use religious values for political ends. The public do not want that and will spurn anyone who tries to do that.
Some people in Europe misinterpret laicism. They imagine that laicism means atheism and suggest it is a shield to protect their own atheism. Some fail to comprehend the Muslim view of laicism, and that is where the problem stems from. Laicism is a comfort for Muslims, too. There is no hypocrisy where there is laicism, and that is a great blessing. People openly express their ideas. If someone is an atheist he says he is an atheist, honestly and openly. Hypocrisy flourishes where there is no laicism, which is when people with no faith say they are religious, and even very devout, misleading the people around them like an actor playing a role. And who wants that? It is very ugly. The following point is also very important, humanity has in any case learned about laicism, democracy and freedom of ideas from Islam, and these values lie at the heart of Islam. Democratic thought, plurality and laicism also prevail in the Qur’an. In other words, members of other faiths are recognized freedoms, there is love, affection and compassion, freedom of thought for them. There is the concept of republic. The peace of public and their security is essential. These are all to be found in the faith. For that reason, giving the idea that religion conflicts with science or politics is a tactic used by atheist freemasons and materialists, and true Muslims must thwart it.
4) You have come under repeated attacks within Turkey. Recently the Turkish prime ministerwas welcomed back as a hero by Muslims for walking out of Davos in protest of European support for Israel after its attack on Gaza. Likewise, the success of your books both inside and outside Turkey shows that Muslims want to debate and defeat materialist dogma. Which way do you think the pendulum will swing in Turkey and what sort of timescale are we talking about?
ADNAN OKTAR: I was first detained when I wrote my book Judaism and Freemasonry. I was held in solitary for 9 months and then for 10 months in a ward full of seriously deranged patients in a mental hospital for saying, during a press statement, “I am from the Turkish people, from the nation of Islam.” I was held with 300 mental patients in an old, run-down stone building left over from the time of Sultan Abdulhamid. These were the most seriously deranged patients, unfit to stand trial, who constantly attacked one another and were generally covered in blood. They were unable to meet even their most basic needs, and the place stank to death. Seven killings took place during my time there. They killed each other with food trays. I was not allowed visits from my friends, nor even allowed to talk to the nurses, doctors or interns. After keeping me there for 10 months the military hospital then issued a report saying I was healthy in mind and body. I do not go into too much detail, but it was a tough environment. Yet for me it was a very excellent and honourable time, insha’Allah.
After that there was an endless series of attacks. But after each one, as a blessing, Allah increased the efficacy of my work many times over, and my circle kept expanding. For example, my time in the mental hospital was when the number of my friends grew most of all. There has been huge progress in Turkey over the last 30 years. The Turkish nation has always been devoted to national values and religious faith; but there has been a huge raising of consciousness and awareness over the last 30 years. A very moderate but powerful conception of Islam has settled in the country. The public’s devotion has increased many times over. Belief in Darwinism has declined so far as to be almost non-existent. Turkey is the country with the lowest level of belief in Darwinism anywhere in the world. A bright future now awaits Turkey, insha’Allah.
Turkey will play the role of older brother, leader to the Turkish-Islamic world and ensure their protection. It will ensure the salvation of all Muslims by establishing the Turkish-Islamic Union. The West supports Turkey’s assuming such a role, and it is excitedly anticipated by the Muslim world. That expectation has become even sharper after the event at Davos. The people of the Middle East are openly saying they want to see Turkey as leader. When you look at the Caucasus and ask them who they want to be the leader, they unanimously say Turkey. All Muslim societies, in Africa, the Far East or the Balkans, regard Turkey with love and respect. This excellent progress will further speed up in the future and the Turkish-Islamic world will enter a golden age like the Age of Happiness.
5) You have proposed the formation of a Turkish Islamic Union. Do you see a Turkish Islamic Union as a stepping stone to the re-establishment of some kind of caliphate or do you envisage a different model of global political Islam?
ADNAN OKTAR: It is important for Muslims to gather around a spiritual leader, rather than a caliphate in particular. It is unlawful for Muslims not be united and act as one. In other words, in the eyes of the Qur’an it is obligatory for Muslims to act as one, be brothers as one and gather round a single leader. But they do not do that. The door to all kinds of scourge will remain open so long as they do not do that. Muslims must fulfil this obligation. I say this so that the Turkish-Islamic Union will be established under Turkish leadership, under the leadership of the Turkish nation. Every state will remain as a separate nation state. It can behave freely in domestic matters, but they need to have a spiritual leader at their head. That is because Christians have a Pope, they have a leader. It is essential that Muslims also have a leader. If that union has a leader, then all this strife and chaos can easily come to an end. In that event, if even the hair of Muslims’ heads somewhere is hurt, the incident will be stopped at once because all Muslims will act in concert. But if they are fragmented, if they act in a manner leaving them open to a policy of ‘divide, fragment, swallow’, then it is of course easily to swallow up small morsels. But it is impossible to swallow up the Muslim world as a whole block. Muslims must fulfil this obligation at once.
6) Do you think the nation state as we know it will have much future? If not, what are short-, medium- and long-term alternatives you can see?
ADNAN OKTAR: There will be a period when states will maintain their own existence and alliances will be formed. In the Turkish-Islamic Union, for example, all states will maintain their own existence. Muslim states that maintain their integral natures will come together to form one spirit, a spiritual union, a union of love. It is a question of Muslims gathering under one roof. The age we are living in is the age of Hazrat Mahdi (as). It is the age of the coming of the Prophet Isa’ (as). By Allah’s leave, the Muslim world will soon be in union, and will form a union that covers the world. The coming of Hazrat Mahdi (as) will take place. It is the time when Isa’ (as), son of Maryam, will return. This is clear from the verses of the Qur’an. These are absolutely certain in Sunni belief, in the Hanafi, Hanbali, Maliki and Shafi’i schools. Nobody denies them, no imam from any school has ever denied them and all of them accepted. In the same way, the coming of the Prophet ‘Isa (as) is a certainty in Shiite belief. And that of Hazrat Mahdi (as). All the portents of this holy good news have come true. There are some 300 portents of the coming of Hazrat Mahdi (as) and the Prophet ‘Isa (as), and they have all happened. We will all live together, insha’Allah, Alawites, Sunnis, Jafaris and everyone. And Hazrat Mahdi (as) will lead the Muslim world, insha’Allah. There will be a century of joy and happiness. Islamic moral values will enjoy a glorious world dominion. Christianity will be cleaned of polytheism and assume a purified state. It will amalgamate with Islam and the Qur’an. It will be an excellent outcome for Christianity, and Islam, and the world. The prayer of the Prophet ‘Isa (as) has been heeded. He asked to be one from the community of our Prophet (saas). When he returns to Earth, he will be one from the community of the Prophet Muhammad (saas).
7) You referred to the current global financial crisis as a sign of the End Times. Do you see this crisis predominantly as monetary or economic in nature, and does the solution lie in monetary reform or in economic measures? Will or should there be a return to protectionism and does this herald the end of globalisation?
ADNAN OKTAR: This is no ordinary economic crisis, but a major event described as happening in the End Times. Our Prophet (saas) has stated in the hadith that such an economic crisis will take place before the appearance of Hazrat Mahdi (as). I can give a couple of examples of these hadith:
Before the coming of the Mahdi, TRADE AND ROADS between nations will be cut, and strife among people will grow. (Al-Qawl al-Mukhtasar fi Alamat al-Mahdi al- Muntadhar, p. 39)
STAGNATION IN THE MARKETS, AND A DECREASE IN EARNINGS... (Portents of Doomsday, p. 148)
Everyone COMPLAINING OF LOW EARNINGS... The rich being respected for their money... (Portents of Doomsday, p. 146)
Business being stagnant. Everyone will complain ‘I cannot sell, buy or earn anything.’ (Portents of Doomsday, p. 152)
This economic crisis is metaphysical. All the economists, scientists, industrialists, investors and everyone in the world are trying to stop it, but they cannot and will not. It will bring the whole system down with it. It began in 2007, and by 2014 it will swallow up almost all countries and materialist systems, and the leaders of those systems will be impoverished and humbled. Shortages will grow as a result. That means nobody will be able to show off because of his wealth and possessions, or be stubborn and arrogant. Like Qarun, Allah will bring all these systems down. The story of Qarun in the Qur’an is happening now in the End Times. All the treasure of Qarun is collapsing now, in other words. The Qur’an says that Qarun’s treasure was very famous and extensive. It says his might and economic strength was very great. The economic strength of those other people was also very great. But they have now entered the age of famine described in Surah Yusuf. And that famine will last for 7 years, and they will undergo great changes during that time and come to know the Qur’an and the moral values of Islam. Their salvation lies in the Turkish-Islamic Union, insha’Allah.
Allah has already brought that system down across the world and everyone has begun having to renounce the interest system. They will have to abandon it, because this economic crisis of the End Times is a great miracle of the age of Hazrat Mahdi (as). It is a marvel of the age of Hazrat Mahdi (as). And it will overturn all banking systems, all banking systems based on interest. Only in the Turkish-Islamic world will unity, togetherness, health and economic well-being remain, apart from which they will all collapse.
8) In your book on Freemasonry you describe how it gave birth to humanism and attempted to undermine and subvert the Christian religion. Do you think the Muslim religion has been subject to similar degeneration by Freemasonry or other secret societies?
ADNAN OKTAR: The apathy of some Muslims today, the disunity in the Muslim world, the insensitivity of some Arab leaders toward the spilling of Muslim blood in Palestine and the Middle East, the way that some Muslims regard the intellectual struggle against Darwinism as unimportant and the way they engage in no activity on the subject are all the result of atheist masonic activity. That they are almost afraid even to speak of Turkish-Islamic union is also the work of the atheist masons. All of them are beyond that, but the heads of state of many Islamic countries are under the control of atheist zionists by way of the atheist masons. For example, the president is a freemason, the prime minister is a freemason and ministers are freemasons.
That is the case in several Islamic countries, excluding Turkey. They are very careful when it comes to division, maintaining fragmentation and avoiding union. The leaders of several Islamic countries are on their guard so that a Turkish-Islamic Union should not be established. They say this is the thing to be avoided most of all. And they do indeed strongly avoid it. The fragmentation of Islamic countries, the way they are all divided, is the greatest weapon in the hands of atheist freemasonry. The atheist masons regard them as a horde of ants, and imagine it can easily crush them with its tanks as they have no single leader. They have struck them right in the jugular vein. They have laid hands on their most important weapon. They say that when they strike against one Islamic country that country will be left to its own devices and nobody will come to its support. Because they are testing this out. They are shedding rivers of blood in Palestine, and there is not a squeak of protest from most Islamic countries.
Look, children and the like are crying out for help in Palestine, but Egypt has closed its border and refuses to allow aid convoys in. How is one to explain that? We cannot just sit back and watch if children are being killed. We cannot sit back and say, “But what is they kill us, too.’ Fear is a corruption of the End Times, a scourge of many Muslims: ‘But what if I am imprisoned, or beaten up, or insulted, or slandered or killed?’ My brother, then you will earn the appropriate merit. Is not your aim in life Allah’s approval? Most Islamic countries are in this needless state of fear. They have experienced great suffering. But Allah would not have inflicted that suffering on them had they been rational and courageous. Strength comes from Allah. None other than Allah has strength. Allah hands out fear and afflictions. Allah sends afflictions to the cowardly. But Allah protects the brave. Muslims have a duty to be brave.
9) You frequently quote Said Nursi. To what extend is your own activism and method influenced by the educational movement he founded?
ADNAN OKTAR: My family is a classic Turkish family. In my last years at high school I saw how there was anarchy in Turkey and how some Muslims were being badly oppressed. That made me really uneasy. I developed a strong urge to save and protect Muslims. I began studying and investigating during that time. I was greatly influenced by Imam Rabbani. I read the Letters of Rabbani, an excellent work written in a very sincere style. I read Imam al-Ghazali’s Spiritual Exercises. I was greatly influenced by that, too. But I was especially influenced by the works of Said Nursi. He was the greatest scholar of this century, a very worthy human being. In my view, he is the greatest scholar of the last 1,000 years. I love him dearly. He is an extraordinary person. I do not think his true worth has yet been fully understood. He is a very metaphysical person; whatever he said came true. I really like his very holy Risale-i Nur Collection. I think it is very valuable. It contains great secrets and profound wisdom, and is written in a very sincere style. I recommend it to everyone. It is a superb book.